Ken Page: Hello everybody and welcome to the Deeper Dating Podcast. I'm Ken Page. I'm a psychotherapist, the author of the bestselling book, Deeper Dating, the Creator of The Deeper Dating Intensive, and your host today. I am so excited to be interviewing. EJ and Tara Kerwin, who are the founders of relationship renovation, who are gonna be talking about the kind of sexual expression that heals a new relationship, an ongoing relationship, and they just speak about this in a way that's different than anyone I've heard.

So, I'm so excited to get to share this episode with you. But let me just say that if this work interests you, if you're interested in the Deeper Dating path to intimacy, you can go to DeeperDatingPodcast.com. You can get a free eBook of my most viral ideas from Psychology Today, and you can get transcripts of every single episode.

And in every episode, I try to share with you the insights and the tools that will most profoundly heal your entire relationship journey, helping you find love and keep it alive. So, thanks so much for being here and, I'd like to jump in now, but I want to tell you about EJ and Tara. The relationship experts and the founders of Relationship Renovation, a dedicated therapy practice in Arizona committed to helping couples strengthen and transform their relationships.

Their flagship venture, the Relationship Renovation Counseling Center offers therapy grounded in a unique model that emphasizes intentional communication and empathy and really does. I love their work. With the launch of the Relationship Renovation Home Program, they've expanded their reach. So, couples now nationwide and globally can get a structured support to foster relationship growth.

Since 2019, they've co-hosted the Highly Regarded Relationship Renovation Podcast, which is in the top 1% of all podcasts worldwide. Tackling common relationship challenges with empathy and actionable insights. In 2024, they launched the Relationship Renovation YouTube Channel, further supporting couples and their journey to healthier, more fulfilling connections.

How do we move away from all of the should’s and have to’s and expectations and cultural trauma around our sexuality so that we can create a sex life that's nourishing, healing, exciting, and liberating and authentic. Authentic. Stay tuned to this episode as I interview Tara and EJ Kerwin hosts of the Relationship Renovation Podcast, and they'll present a model of sexual healing and expression that is absolutely exquisite.

So, stay tuned to this episode.

Okay, so let us jump in here. I'm so excited to have you both on the show. I just recorded on your podcast, and we had the most amazing conversation, and I just, I was so truly impressed by the way you both communicate, by your vulnerability, by your presence. So, I'm just really excited to have you here and, and to have you talk about such important material and, and material that I think that on this podcast I don't talk about enough.

So really, really glad to have you here. Yeah, it's great to be here, Ken. Good to see you again. Thank you. Yes, thank you for having us. And we feel the same way when we had our interview with you on our podcast. Like we, I mean, we loved you so much. We have a part two coming out. I can't wait. Right? Like just that energy that you give felt really good.

Tara Kerwin: So, we're really happy to be here.

Ken Page: So, sex is such an important and such a charged area for, for all couples and, um, and also for people who are in early dating and beginning a relationship or exploring a relationship. So, I have so many questions for you, but just to start out, can you talk about like, from the beginning, like early dating.

Into deep into ongoing relationships, what are the challenges in communicating about sex and what can help us to do that in better ways?

EJ Kerwin: Ooh, that's a good one. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think just like one of the biggest challenges is just the fact that. There's no paradigm for actually talking about sex, you know, talking about, um, the interaction with, with another person in that way and mm-hmm.

And at the beginning of a relationship, generally, it's so organic. You know, and it's so, you're so just, you know, just everything is organic about the beginning of the relationship. Like, I remember when I first got together with Tara, like, just like, we stayed up so late, you know, like drinking wine and, and eating cheese, and cooking when she'd come home from work and then, and then sexually, like everything was just like.

Everything flowed so naturally.

Share on X: No guidebook for talking about sex? EJ Kerwin says we need one as relationships grow. @RelationshipRenovation #DeeperDating

Tara Kerwin: Curiosity just there, so curious,

EJ Kerwin: So excited, and so there was no need to really talk about it. And I think, and I think that that's what most people experience on some level. And, and then things change. And, and, and like anything, like when you blend your finances, when you blend a family, when you become parents, you gotta talk about it and you gotta work it out.

And I think there's some paradigm for every other conversation. Right. You know, there's some awareness that like, oh yeah, we'll talk about this, and we'll work it out.

Tara Kerwin: Like, what kind of parents do we wanna be? Yeah, totally. How should we manage our finances?

EJ Kerwin: And sexually, like, I think there's just, there's no guidebook for it whatsoever, because most of us, the primary messages we get is, don't do it.

If you do it, it's dangerous or it's bad that you do it. Until you're married, then it's beautiful and it's perfect. And it's amazing. And, and, you know, and, and so, you know, I just don't think we have a guidebook.

Tara Kerwin: No. And, and I also think that there's, you know, just these hidden expectations that it should always just be.

Like this and really good, and that we'll always be attracted to each other. Like there is not that, uh, we don't learn like, hey, intimacy is like one of the most important parts of your relationship and you have to cultivate it every day. Like, who teaches us that? No. It's only when we go to couples therapy when our relationship is like completely severed that it's like, oh, we have to talk about sex.

I mean, I would, I'm gonna give a percentage here, like. I would say, right, 80% of couples that come in to see us struggle with intimacy, and maybe 5% of them have talked about. Their sex and intimacy.

Ken Page: Wow. Five. Wow.

Tara Kerwin: Because like EJ was saying, how do you talk about it? And, and another big thing too for like when, you know, with EJ and I, and also with the work we do with couples, it's like.

The needs and desires. Like there's, it's such a mismatch. Like, you know, it's like, oh, well we, I just do it to do it. Or 'cause I know we're married, and we have to do it. And so like, I know like once a week, like he's gonna want it on a Sunday. Like I'm just kind of like generalizing this, but it's like people aren't even attuned to like what their own needs and desires are.

So, it becomes something so depersonalized. Almost like a task that you have to do. Not for everybody, but for a lot of people. And so, our mission right in life is to like, how do you feel so deeply connected to yourself and each other that it feels very safe to explore whatever desire, whatever need, whatever touch feels good to you.

And most people look at us like deer in headlights, like. I haven't even thought about intimacy like that. We just wanted more of it, like, you know, and, and another thing that we have to do too is like. You know, couples come in and like one partner has a lower sex drive, the other partner has a higher sex drive.

Well, we just wanna have more sex. I like what's happening. So, like we have to slow it down and be like, oh my gosh, we have to focus on like emotional safety and like, how good are you guys at communicating? And they're like, no, no, no, no. We just wanna have more sex. Like we just need our, our sex to be better.

And it's like. Well, that's just one part of such a huge hole, and so it takes a little bit of convincing, like, we can't just talk about sex today when you've experienced this toxic relationship with it for like more than a decade, and you won't hear it any differently. So, I'm just not gonna waste your time doing that.

There's so many other parts to it, and so, you know, we've done so many podcasts on. Intimacy, emotional intimacy and how that leads to really deepening physical intimacy and how the two are very, um, correlated. They're together. They're not separate, and so a lot of that is also psychoeducation to the population.

EJ Kerwin: We did a series on intimacy and it, and its goal was to help people look at the fact that intimacy is not just sex, they're not synonymous, right? That there's a spectrum. And when we did, did deeper research and really looked at it ourselves, we like realized like, oh, there's like, there is like sexual intimacy, but there's emotional intimacy.

There's intellectual intimacy, spiritual intimacy, there's spiritual intimacy. And I think when you tease it out and make it a lot more robust for a couple and see that there's different things you can be doing to cultivate that connection.

Tara Kerwin: Mm-hmm.

EJ Kerwin: That then it becomes like something you can, that's actually like workable.

That's achievable. But I think when it's just like sex, I think it's just like, it's daunting, you know? Because in order to get to the sex, like you have to, like really, um, you have to be able to be vulnerable and open up because, I mean, what is more deeply person- personal than your sexuality? You know?

Ken Page: It's so true.

So, everybody should be listening to your podcast, first of all, because there's such rich material and so many breakdowns. And also, you’re at-home course is just such an incredibly valuable tool. But I just wanna back up here because you both have said so many important things, and I just wanna point out some of the things that, that you spoke about that were really exciting, and important to me in hearing and, and have you kind of talk about them more.

So, Tara, you said one of the first steps is knowing what you need sexually yourself. And then the next piece is being able to talk about it and communicate about it. And then you talked about disparity between couples. And then EJ, you talked about like this universe of connection and how sex is so much a part of that.

But you talked about all these other pieces of deep connection that support wonderful sex, and are, are just kind of other facets of the same thing. So, there's like worlds in what you said. I know. Yeah. And, and right there. I just wanna start by maybe breaking it down a little bit. Could you talk about, like, this first step of like, figuring out yourself, what moves you emotionally in sex?

What, what turns you on physically? Like, like even before you are talking about it, how do you figure it out?

Tara Kerwin: Well, so. When I'm sitting with a couple, right, and we're processing this, I'm always gauging like, where's the vulnerability level? Where's the safety level within this, because you wanna make sure that you feel emotionally safe with your partner.

If you are in a relationship, that that feels okay 'cause it feels like you're being exposed. Like, what do you mean? Right. So many couples go in to like, I wanna make sure my partner's being pleased. Right. Not recognizing that like, maybe that's something that doesn't feel good to them. It's kind of like, you know how there's like the five love languages.

Acts of service, uh, physical touch, like same thing to be said around intimacy and like, you know, some couples, right? Maybe intimacy snuggling after sex isn't important, but for the other partner it's really important, but they've never talked about it. So now there's just this constant disconnection of physical, emotional needs that are happening within a 30-minute hour timeframe, not being talked about. So, the first piece that I'm always gauging is how emotionally safe do you feel with each other? Cause we won't get into that until there's safety in the, in the room.

Ken Page: Beautiful. Mm-hmm.

Tara Kerwin: Then it, and then it's. Okay.

We kind of do like touch exercises in sessions if it feels okay. And usually you're like, okay, like put your hand on your partner and, you know, what's that feel like? I have each of them share, like, what does that feel like for, oh, I feel loved, I feel cared for, and, and then you kind of, U-turn it to the person who's doing the touch and like.

What kind of touch feels good to you? Do you like having your hand on their lap? Is that something that feels good or not good? Like it's starting with a very sensory, somatic.

Ken Page: Beautiful. Mm-hmm.

Tara Kerwin: Instead of, but instead of, how does it feel for the partner? How does that feel for you? Do you want it to be lighter?

Softer, more rough. So, in session we can kind of start to explore somatically, but the biggest piece is that like you're doing a U-turn instead of like, does this feel good to my partner? Is does this feel good to me? Is this the touch that I wanna give and what touch do I wanna receive as well?

So, it’s kind of...

Ken Page: And you're starting. Yeah. Excuse me, but, but you're starting with not even like in like deep sex. You're starting with like the simplest, gentlest touch and what kind of touch feels right. That's awesome.

Tara Kerwin: And even so, we work with a lot of infidelity where there is like betrayal and trust has just been ruptured, so it can take couples.

A minute to get here and we'll start with just kissing, like kissing and then French kissing, if that feels okay. You know, we give like little assignments throughout the week that, you know, what's the environment like? You know, I remember this one couple, like they had kids and like there was laundry all over the room and he would come in like, 'Oh my God, the kids are in bed. Let's do this!' And she'd be like, 'Okay.'

But she didn't realize like laundry. Around the room made her very anxious.

Ken Page: Mm-hmm.

Tara Kerwin: So, we got to slow it down. She's like, I want him to light a candle, and I don't want there to be laundry, at least like put it in like a little laundry basket so it's not all over. Like, so just setting up the environment to have that sensory feel.

Good and not, and not with anxiety. Cause the biggest thing that we see is sex has now become this like soul, like this entire entity that's separate, that's filled with anxiety. We're like, oh no. Sex is the most beautiful closest way you can be with your partner. And here it is riddled with anxiety and it's almost like the separate monster.

How do we like start to, you know, get rid of all of that anxiety and you start with looking at atmosphere. Right? The environment, timing is huge, right? It can't just be at night when like maybe one partner is completely, like exhausted from the day and then has done all this stuff and it's like, oh God, you know, you hear this like it's nine o'clock and like they're gonna wanna have sex and okay, so I'm just gonna have to like prep for this.

Their whole body's tense just prepping 'cause of nighttime. So, we're like, listen, if nine o'clock is not your time. That's gotta be okay. I mean, there's so many, I mean, I could have like 10 podcasts on this, but...

Share on X: Sex should be beautiful, not a monster of anxiety, says Tara Kerwin. How do we reclaim it? @RelationshipRenovation #IntimacyMatters

Ken Page: Right. But you're just really starting with people's hearts and nervous systems. You're opening up this nervous concept of safety from like the most primitive kinds of like, what feels safe and what doesn't to this thing of like, what does your nervous system need?

And so, then different people's nervous system needs. Systems need different things, and then that brings up this kind of whole issue of disparity.

Tara Kerwin: I. Well, and I mean, EJ and I have like real, a lot of safety now. We've developed it and it's, I mean, I, I am just gonna kind of use a personal experience. Is that, is that okay?

EJ Kerwin: Of course.

Tara Kerwin: I mean this is how...

Ken Page: Love that you guys do that.

Tara Kerwin: How, this is how, this is how good we're at saying like, this is what a need is. You know, this was like last Summer. We're in main camp and like. You know, EJ was just like, you know, we're intimate having sex. And like, he was like going to town and I said, EJ, like, I just have to let you know, this doesn't feel good right now.

I, I need it to slow down. It feels very rushed and I'm starting to feel like a shame piece come up in my body. And he was like, do you remember this?

EJ Kerwin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: And he was like, thank you so much for telling me. But like that takes. A lot of vulnerability to stop EJ in, literally in his tracks, to be like, I have to let you know, like, this doesn't feel good right now.

Could we please slow it down? But like, you have to be able to do that in order to create that type of safety and that deep, intimate connection. Like it has to be okay that I have that need and that he's willing to hear it. And he was, you know, but we, you get to that point where it's like, yeah, I mean, and sometimes that does feel good, but in that moment, in that time.

It felt awful and I didn't want my shame coming up like. You know, I have a history of sexual abuse, so I don't want shame coming up at all.

Share on X: Vulnerability in the moment can transform sex, says Tara Kerwin. ‘This doesn’t feel good’—and it’s okay to say it. @RelationshipRenovation #RealIntimacy

Ken Page: That's so brave. That's, that's, that's really cool. And, and, and of you too, EJ you know, it reminds me of, um, you know, the comedian Janeane Garofalo, she talks about the opposite of what you did.

Like she said, do you ever feel like, like in the middle of sex, you just wanna punch your partner in the face and say, stop screwing me. Which is like, you know, when you don't communicate, and it can reach that point.

EJ Kerwin: I mean that, that also speaks to, 'cause when, when Tara was talking about the, the, you know, the somatic work that we might do in session, and I can even walk it back farther to just how do we first create an atmosphere therapeutically.

Where people feel safe, you know where, and that's like we did a lot of this work just, just together of like working through those little micro triggers and all the, just like normal disruptions that happen in talking about the most basic of things in your relationship.

Tara Kerwin: Mm-hmm.

EJ Kerwin: That if you don't have an understanding of how you get triggered, how you, how those things happen.

I-in the most mundane aspects of your life. How in the world is Tara ever gonna get to that point in a sexual moment where she could do that? Like, if she can't do that about me fixing the garbage disposal this weekend, if she doesn't feel safe bringing that up to me, what are the chances she's gonna feel safe talking to me about, about our intimacy?

Yeah.

Ken Page: This is such...

EJ Kerwin: And that's a lot of what we're building.

Ken Page: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I'd love you to talk about that a little bit more. Like what kind of ways of communicating and being together, actually build that magical closeness like outside of the bedroom? What kind of skills, what kind of things, what ways of being build that, that kind of like foundation for beautiful arrows outside the bedroom?

EJ Kerwin: I mean, I, I think a lot of it has to do with really deeply understanding yourself. I mean, I think that has been, uh, a lot of the path that, that we've been on together and that we really sort of really try to, to bring to the forefront in our work with couples that this relationship is a vehicle to me, understanding me.

Deepest areas of growth and that I need to understand those. And then we need to sort of bring each other in on it. You know, I need to open up to Tara and then Tara needs to help me understand why she feels unsafe, you know, and because they're so like knotted up, you know, that like my, you know, maybe my inability to express when I am feeling frustrated.

I keep it compacted and then that feels unsafe because then she's like, I don't know what's going on.

Tara Kerwin: Because I can feel it.

Ken Page: Right. Right.

EJ Kerwin: And so, it's like helping people understand like what are, like the, in the little, you know, microsurgery moments in your relationship and your communication. That create the bigger problems because it's gonna be, then it's, it's gonna be the same obviously when it comes around sex that like.

That, that, that my insecurities around, you know, we use this example around what, what shirt I'm wearing and whether it matches my pants or whether she likes it, is definitely related to can I accept that, that feedback in an intimate moment when she says like, what, what we're doing right now doesn't feel good. And, and, and I have to be able to do that work around my t-shirt.

So that I can accept feedback then, so I can then accept feedback around, around our intimacy, you know?

Ken Page: So, so it's this broader picture of connected communication.

Tara Kerwin: Well, and, and at an individual level, Ken, it's taking the emotional. Trusting, trusting that that's okay. Cause you, you are allowed to be whoever you are and if you're trying, if you are kind of caretaking and walking on eggshells, 'cause you don't wanna disrupt the other person, like you're losing pieces of yourself.

How is that hot and sexy? That's awful.

Ken Page: Yes.

Tara Kerwin: You know, we, we had this, um, oh, sex therapist. She was wonderful. I think it was Jess Zimmerman. She, she talked about uncompromised intimacy that, that individuals need to not compromise. Like, oh, I can tell she had a rough day, so I'm not gonna let her know how sexy she is, 'cause then she's gonna, no, you say, 'Hey, I just wanna let you know, like I'm feeling really frisky towards you. No pressure. Just letting you know, like I am really desiring you right now.' Because why would you compromise your own intimacy even if your partner might be having a bad day? So, it's like how do you get to that place where you can still, even if there is that discrepancy in sexual desire, like I get to be like, God, EJ, I still think you are like fine. Even though you might not wanna have sex with me right now, like I, I'm not gonna like care, take you to like, forget and lose my own sexual desires. So, like, again, emotional.

EJ Kerwin: That's a, yeah, that's a, that's a really hard one. And the discrepancy thing.

Tara Kerwin: Yes.

EJ Kerwin: 'cause I mean. Um, we've, we've felt it sort of from both sides, that like, there's been times where I've had lower and she's had higher, and then it's, and then it flip flopped the other way.

And that whole idea of like, well if my partner's not interested, I don't want to deal with rejection. So, I'm not even gonna bring it. So, if I do find her attractive, I'm not even gonna bring it up 'cause it's just gonna frustrate me anywhere. Cause it's not gonna go anywhere.

Tara Kerwin: And, and that's.

EJ Kerwin: And that it has to become like that, that we have to have that safety for me to be like, you know, I still think you're like beautiful and I'm, I'm, I think you're sexy. And, and even if that doesn't go anywhere, that's okay, because that's still, even though maybe we're not having sex. That's still an expression of my sexuality.

Like I can't hide my sexuality away just because yours right now is, is, is not, is not vibrating at a similar, similar frequency. Yeah. And that I have to feel safe, just like she has to feel safe. That, that I can say that and that that's a, that's okay. Positive thing to say in my relationship.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

Ken Page: And it's okay for her to maybe accept it or maybe brush it off because it makes her feel uncomfortable and I can be like, okay, that's all good. You know?

This is, this is so great. And I feel like, um. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Tara Kerwin: And I'll say, well, I was gonna say a starting point. Cause you're saying what are the skills needed?

Right? And like you can hear us, we're just like, gosh. Communication, taking emotional risks, not caretaking your partner, like still being you. But one of the biggest, the things that we start off with is like talking. Talking about, talking about it, right? Like what would it be for? And then somatically like, oh my God, just the thought of it makes my heart race.

Okay. What is that like? Really getting calm in your body so that when you're having the conversations, your nervous system isn't in flight, fight, or freeze. It's like, okay, this, we can do this. That's gonna give you the first piece of confidence, like, we can talk about this and it's actually okay. And you're not running out the door and I'm not frozen.

Ken Page: Maybe holding hands or sitting next to each other when you do it.

Tara Kerwin: Absolutely. And even, and then it goes to the part like, you know, for example, like when we, you know, after our children were born, we had our first date like a year later, and I was just like, oh my gosh, it's our date night. And then I know that what that means, that means there's an expected intimacy and I'm so nervous and anxious and I didn't have the tools.

To talk about that is so, of course that night ended up in an argument, right? Cause I'm self-sabotaging, so we don't have to have sex. I'm like, we're gonna fight instead. Fast forward three years later, I can be like, gosh, EJ, I have to let you know, I have that like anxiety.

Ken Page: I love this.

Tara Kerwin: That like, you're gonna be expecting sex tonight.

And he'll be like, oh my gosh, thank you for sharing. Like, thank you. Like I, I got to own my own anxiety and not carry it with me and then not go and sabotage it with a fight, which so many people do when they don't even know it.

Ken Page: You know, I've heard so many sex.

Yeah, I've heard so many sex therapists talk and it's very rare that that, that I hear what I'm hearing from you, this consistent movement toward the bigger picture of, of space, of honoring our nervous systems and not just bringing it to sex, but, but bringing it to kind of the whole picture.

But as you're talking, this brings up a question for me that, uh. That that I've seen in so many places. I've seen it in my own life. I've seen it in my friends' lives, and I've seen it in so many clients' lives as well. What about when your sexual language is different than your partners? And maybe you, I mean, just for some like basic examples, maybe you want it more passionate and more intense and more, as a friend of mine calls it collision sex.

And maybe your partner wants touch. That feels very conscious, very present, very slow. And let's even say you tell your partner. They don't really get it, and you tell them again and they don't really get it. You tell 'em again, they don't really get it, and you start to feel this magical part of sex just isn't gonna happen with my partner because I told them, and they don't get it.

EJ Kerwin: Yeah. I mean, the first thing that comes to me is like, that they don't get it is probably the wrong frame.

Tara Kerwin: Mm-hmm.

EJ Kerwin: You know, in that there's something that it's putting them up against that they're super uncomfortable with, or they don't even need the hold, know how to hold the space for the conversation.

Right, because, because it, because it, it seems like. If you can get somebody into, if you can understand what their area of resistance is, right? Like, because I mean, this is like definitely looking through the therapeutic lens of like, we see people in, in multiple ways where they're up against their own resistance to change.

And instead of just looking at, okay, why can't they get there? It's like, well, let's look at the resistance instead. And so, I, I would wanna have a conversation with my partner about like, okay, when we talk about this, what happens for you? Like, does that, do you, where, where in your body, like do you get, do you feel tight in your chest?

Does your, does your stomach not up? Do you get overwhelmed and confused? Like, I wanna understand like, what they come up against. Because, because the other side of it of like, you know, of, of, of, of cultivating a certain energy within your, your sexual life that there's a system you can create.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

EJ Kerwin: You know, you can be like, hey, let's create a space where like I teach you and we play and, and it's like, I'll show you what I mean.

But I don't think I, I, I, I don't think you get there unless you first understand like, what, what is the resistance? And I think oftentimes the resistance is just not having any paradigm for having like a really thoughtful conversation about your own sexuality. You know, there's no...

Ken Page: So, the first piece is, yeah, the first piece then is that kind of communication that, that beautiful open communication.

EJ Kerwin: Yeah, 'cause you're telling them, but you're, it doesn't sound like you're having a discussion about it. I'm telling them what I want and then they're not changing.

Tara Kerwin: I'm telling 'em over, and over, and over.

EJ Kerwin: And at 45 minutes later, or two days or a week and a half later, I, they, I'm telling them what I want. But you're not like getting into it about like, okay, well what do you, what are you hearing me say?

Like when I say that what comes up for you?

Tara Kerwin: Because for...

EJ Kerwin: Jumping out at you?

Tara Kerwin: Well, I'm just saying, because for a lot of people, and it's so unconscious, it's a fear of failure. What if I do this and they're still not pleased?

Ken Page: True.

EJ Kerwin: Or how in the world do I do it in the first place? Like what are they talking about?

Ken Page: Well, that's the other piece.

EJ Kerwin: Collision sex.

Ken Page: 'cause then you have to, was that right? You have to cultivate that because that's the whole other piece. But I guess that's part two. Part one is safe communication. But then part two would be how do you create a playground? How do you create an arena? Yes.

Where each partner can learn to enter into that other sexual response world.

Tara Kerwin: And there's something to be said about, so one of our lessons in office and at our at home program is acceptance versus resignation. It's like a powerful session and or a few that we have. And acceptance is like, this is like, let's just say; people are struggling in their intimacy right now, right? Acceptances is like, okay, this is happening. Like we're, we're taking steps, we're listening to podcasts, we're going to a sex coach, we're seeing a therapist. Like it's not gonna be like this forever. And we're gonna try to learn the skills that we were not taught that most of are not, to really get a deeper, intimate relationship.

That is a great place. So, it could happen in a few months, but we're accepting it. Resignation is like nothing is ever gonna change. They will never be able to understand what I'm trying to say to them. So, I'm just done and, and it's, it's so different. Cause now resignation,

EJ Kerwin: I'm stuck.

Tara Kerwin: It's the same thing.

EJ Kerwin: I'm stuck with this. I gotta have it.

Tara Kerwin: It's the same thing. You still wanna be deeply connected to your partner, but now you're coming from a very disempowered place, so that just feels really bad. So now there's no chance that you're gonna be able to have healthy, safe communication with intimacy versus an acceptance like.

Can I share one more thing really quick? So, EJ really wants to have sex furniture, like play with sex, furniture and all this stuff. And I'm like, dude, you've got four kids, right? Like, they would just like be eating Cheetos on this furniture. Like I'm gonna have a totally different association with like that beautiful red velvet loveseat. And so maybe when the kids are gone out of our house, honey, we can have a whole little sex dungeon, furniture room. But right now, like it's just not happening. So, like we're in this acceptance place, like we can only do so much right now because we have a house full of kids. But we're okay with that, 'cause we know that we still want to have that like playful adventure, but we just know that like right now, like yeah, there's not any sex furniture going into our house.

EJ Kerwin: Well, and I think that also speaks to like, it's a lot. I, I feel like the initial stage of sex, like we talked about earlier, is so like, organic and, and it happens in a brief period of time. And then the rest of your sexual life with your partner is a game.

Ken Page: Right. And I think that's really a key piece is like, like with this, with this acceptance piece, is knowing we're in this together.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

Ken Page: We are gonna keep communicating. We're going to keep learning, and, and this concept of introducing your partner to the magic of the kind of sex that you like. What would happen if you were touched that way? What would happen for you? I think that's another piece of it too, that there's actually an introducing, because we all have our own different kind of sex magic, and, like actually being, knowing that there's the time and the space to let your partner know why you might wanna do a particular thing or what you feel when you do a particular thing is, can only happen with these kind of foundational pieces. I think

EJ Kerwin: Well, and that it's okay to, for them that it might be a process for them to learn to be in that space. That there's not some expectation if I make this request from you.

Ken Page: Right, right.

EJ Kerwin: The next time we have sex; it should be like this, and you should do it perfectly or close to it.

I think that's what.

Ken Page: Right, right.

EJ Kerwin: Freezes people from changing, 'cause they're like, I don't even know what collision sex is. How am I gonna do collision sex? What's collision sex? And then they're like, you know, they, they sort of freeze up. Whereas, whereas it's like we're gonna, this is gonna be like a work in progress, you know, whether it's about like, like you're talking about sort of introducing different aspects of sexuality of your partner or if it's about discrepancy that like, this is a long game, like this might, your partner's sex drive and your sex drive might be off for, for years, and you're gonna have to find ways to be okay with it and still love each other and enjoy the moments you do have. It's not gonna switch in a month and a half. You know, they're not gonna learn the way that you prefer sex, the, the next time. And the expectation isn't for you that, like, I don't, I, I'm not expected. I don't, I'm not gonna judge myself if I can't. Get it perfect for my partner.

Ken Page: Right, right, right.

Tara Kerwin: And before we end, let's, I would love to do just like a, for your listeners, like a little, a one-minute simple exercise that they can take with them, that they can do in their relationship. And it's, it really is the beginning of like having, really great communication around how touch feels for your partner and for yourself.

Ken Page: Beautiful. We will absolutely do that. But before we do, I mean I have so many questions. I feel like, you know, when you open like a really great book and like it's like, oh, I could open it anywhere. There's gonna be like something good there. Like I feel like that's what my questions are like for you.

I have about a million questions, and I can ask you anything, and I just love how you both keep putting it into the frame of a harmonious connection again and again and again. But here's my other question is most of the people listening to this podcast are in early, not everybody, but most are in early relationships.

And the questions about sex are different kind of questions like, and I'll just give you some examples, like when do we have it? How early do we have it? And then another piece is, I think this happens a lot for new couples is like, it's a really big deal when, for a lot of people when they first have sex, because that's like a defining thing for them.

Like, uh, sex isn't working. This is not meant to be. So that there's like a, a kind of really heavy load on that, which often leads people to drink more, like on their first date. So, they're intoxicated when they have sex. But I would just love to hear thoughts like, how does this beautiful approach apply to people that are just dating and exploring sex?

EJ Kerwin: I mean, I think it would be amazing for a couple to have a conversation before they have sex about what they learned about sex growing up.

Tara Kerwin: Yes.

Share on X: Before sex, ask: what did you learn about it growing up? EJ Kerwin’s game-changer for new couples. @RelationshipRenovation #DeeperDating

EJ Kerwin: Like I think that that would be such an interesting thing to not do what we do, which is post, you know, doing it. 10 years into, into a relationship that you go back of like, of like; Hey, like what were you, like what, what did, what did your parents, what did they say about sex?

Like, what were the messages you got and, and what was like, when did you get in? You know, did you get introduced in a real, like beautiful way or was it kind of weird and scary in fifth grade? Somebody showed you, you know, especially now where like younger generation, you know, are looking at video images and like, can, can be really like, you know, intense and just like having a conversation before you got into it about like what, what is, you know, you as a young person up to now, like what was your introduction to sex?

What were your first experiences?

Tara Kerwin: And I have goosebumps because how often, like, is someone curious about your previous experience learning about sex? Normally it's like, oh, I don't wanna hear that you've been with other people. Like, it's like, no, like have there, like we have a whole four-part intimacy series, and I'm actually working on a new relationship innovation model for newly committed couples.

So, this part is going in, but the very first piece is like. Have there been like harmful experiences for you that you would want me to know about? To make sure, like it just that curiosity, being able to open up and, I mean, we have. We have couples from 20 to 80, and some of them have never even thought of this question, like how did you learn?

Who was the first person to taught you? What was your first experience like? I'm doing a, we do intimacy timelines with our couples, and I'm doing this when they've been together since they were 16. Like her very first intimate reaction or intimate experience with him was traumatic for her 'cause she felt like she had to give him a blowjob and she's never done it before.

And she was just like. Frozen in time and like she had never processed how that was so terrifying for her. That was 25 years ago, and she got to process and heal. That was a part of that her that was keeping her frozen in their current intimacy. Cause she had.

Ken Page: Right, right.

Tara Kerwin: And so, it's those early questions like that’s.

Ken Page: But how do you ask those early questions on the third date?

You're with someone, you both really like each other. You might not wanna ask. Yeah, that's that super intense question. Like third date, you both really like each other and you're gonna, you're like sitting on the couch together and you're gonna start making out. We're not sure where it's gonna go, but it's feeling really good.

Any thoughts for those folks in that situation? Third date, fourth date, fifth date, sixth date.

EJ Kerwin: I mean, I, I think the piece of advice I would, I would give, or just the insight I would give is that actually people really love to be asked these questions and that, if you brought up something like really in a really thoughtful, curious way to this, this new person, and you ask them something like, you know; Hey, uh, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm attracted to you and I, I wanna get to know that aspect of you. And one thing I'm just really curious about is just like, you know, like, can, can we talk a little bit about like how both of us were... you know, we're introduced to sex, and like what we, what we learned as kids. Like, I think like most people are actually gonna almost like be relieved to get a question like that.

Ken Page: Unless they've been traumatized. If they've been traumatized, you know, which like so many people have. That's terrible. That's my only concern about that.

EJ Kerwin: Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: So, another for me.

Ken Page: But I think that could maybe be framed differently.

EJ Kerwin: But what's the alternative? Right?

Ken Page: Well maybe there's a kind of set of questions you can ask that are like, what's, how, you know, how do we feel being here together?

EJ Kerwin: Sure.

Ken Page: Being excited, being connected, and we're thinking about sex. Maybe something like, like that. Like I feel, or even just saying I feel scared, but I feel really excited. Like how about you?

Tara Kerwin: Yeah, because that's the thing too. Like shared values within an in, within an intimacy. Like we think that this other person just has the same values I do.

Right? And then when it comes to like, you realize you don't have the same values. That's when it starts to feel really bad. But I'm just like a big believer in my, I'm trusting my own body and if there is like a signal that I don't wanna continue, like I have to listen to that. So just helping, yes.

Individuals who are in this early dating, like, trust your gut if, if you are feeling any blacks, if you're feeling this nervousness like. Don't go, you're just traumatizing yourself. You're going through something that your body is clearly saying. Red flag for me. Like, I'm just not quite ready. And you know, I, I'm trying to think about this 'cause it's been like decades since I've been single, but I would always go into before, like had a date.

Like where is my boundary? Like I know what I'm ready for and not ready for. Right? And if I know, if I'm starting to drink too much now, I'm really nervous, 'cause I have, I have a nervous personality. So, then my boundary is like, I'm gonna call, right? I always have a plan B. I'm gonna call one of my girlfriends and be like, 'Hey, call me at like nine 30 and say, you need me to come pick you up.'

Right? Like just the predicting, planning, and preparing for yourself with boundaries, especially early on. And I would just say too can, like, it's so different now. Like you can hook up with someone with just a swipe. Right, just a swipe and you can be like, oh, I'm just like needing some physical affection right now.

And you know, what does it mean? What does sex mean nowadays where it's so easily accessible, but for the individual? Like is it that you just need a physical outlet. Right? And that it's kind of separate from like love is it that, you know, this is just like the new way the world is on Tinder and all the different apps, but maybe it doesn't feel good to you, but you're trying to go with the flow and the peer pressure, so you're kind of disconnected from that part of it.

I don't know. I, I think having conversations around that could feel a little bit lighter, like how it's so easy to just hook up these days and not have an emotional connection.

Ken Page: Right. There are like so many different ways to talk about it, but, but I love this concept of like being braver about asking what were your experiences or, or what are you bringing to this?

Like somehow that's like, I've never heard anybody suggest that for an early on. Like I've never heard that before and I think it's really cool. I do wanna get to that exercise, but I would love to have you both on again, to talk about helping people learn that first step of what they want, what they need, what their nervous system wants, things they may be ashamed of, or they may have been told that, that they can't do.

I would love, especially since so many people in my audience are not in a relationship now, these are such seminal questions for when they enter into a relationship. So, I'd love to have you back to.

EJ Kerwin: Yeah, that sounds fun.

Ken Page: Continue that conversation.

EJ Kerwin: As soon as you said that, like, I thought it was like such, so interesting.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

EJ Kerwin: What the, the tension and the proximity between shame and things that turn you on. Shame, like how those things could be like, just like a, just a, a razor edge between the two of 'em.

Ken Page: Absolutely. Such a huge thing. So, okay, for our next time. But I do want, I do wanna let Tara do this, lead us in this exercise before we close too.

Tara Kerwin: It's like, whatcha gonna do?

I mean, it's just, again, I just love like these little hands-on tools and, um, and oh yeah. And even if, like, even if like you're, you don't even have to let your partner know, like, this is what you're doing, but this is a way to U-turn on how does touch feel for me instead of thinking about, oh, I wonder if this is okay for my partner.

So, but I'm gonna let you in on this EJ 'cause you're here with me, and, you know, okay. So, it's really, this is, so we're, we're holding hands, right? Oh, okay. We're holding hands. It just, it feels good. Right? EJ, what does it feel like?

EJ Kerwin: Um, it feels like I'm reaching. Um, it feels, it feels nice. You're, your kind of stroking the back of my hand with your thumb.

It feels like you're, you're, um, I dunno, taking care of me a little.

Tara Kerwin: So, I, so here I am. Thank you for sharing. I'm in my head like, oh, I wonder how, I know that he likes, right? Like me kind of stroking my thumb down his fingers, but I'm not really thinking about me. So, I'm gonna be like, thank you so much for letting me know that that feels good.

So, I'm gonna just U-turn it and be like. God, I really love holding his hand. It feels warm. I feel so connected to him. I'm gonna kind of like squeeze it a little bit tighter 'cause that just makes me feel a little bit more safe. Right? And the connection that I feel and the love I feel when I'm just, you know, touching him.

It's pretty amazing. Right? We don't, we don't go into that type of, we're holding, hands, and we take it for granted. But when you can have little moments of like, 'Hey honey, how does that feel for you?' And let me tell you what it feels like, and then I'll say, does that pressure feel okay? Or is that too tight?

EJ Kerwin: That's nice.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah. And this, I mean, you start off with hands, you start off with kissing, you start off with massage, right? And then when you're in intimate moments, like in the bedroom, that's where you can start to feel more confident that you have the skills where you can say: Hey, is this? Does this? Is this too much? Does this feel right? No, start over there. Actually, that would feel better if you maybe did like a more upward, right?

It's so, it's starting small with like holding hands and sharing your experience of it, and each person takes turns and then it can go deeper into the bedroom and it's, like really cool because, how often do we have someone that wants to explore with us? What touch, what pressure, what sense, what ambiance goes well with intimacy?

EJ Kerwin: Well, and then it can be.

Ken Page: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'll let you be the closing, closing line on this.

EJ Kerwin: Yes. Well, and then it can lead to even the cultivation of a brand-new sort of connection. A different type of intimacy. Cause, 'cause through sort of similar communication and similar talk about touch between the two of us. Tara really clarified to me at one point that, I really love massage that I know has no connection to sexuality, to, to our, to our sexual life. That like when I know you are rubbing my feet or rubbing my back, and I know that there's no intent.

And so, then I bring that energy now like where I like when I wanna do something nice for her and I want her and, and I, and she knows now that I'm like, 'Hey, can I rub your feet?' And I rub her feet, and she knows like, this is safe. This is just about me being touched and he's not looking for anything. This isn't going anywhere.

Tara Kerwin: Yes.

EJ Kerwin: And it came through from, you know, that basic like little exercise like that to a point of her clarifying something big that, that's important to her. That there's some affection I give her. And it's probably, I would assume healing on some way around her trauma that like somebody touching me.

Where they're just touching me because they care and love me, not because they want something from me.

Ken Page: I love it. You know, you are taking sex and making it, you're moving it from transactional, to spiritual, to like really about deep connection. It has been so exciting, and I think that you both talk about sex in a way that I've rarely heard, you embody a quality of like safety that is rare.

Really, really rare. It's beautiful. I'm so excited to have had you on and I'm excited to have you on again, to go more into the nervous system regulation and the understanding of our sexual needs and, and the communication around that. But how can people learn more about the two of you? How can they find out about your work?

EJ Kerwin: I mean, I think the easiest thing to do is go to our website RelationshipRenovation.com. From there, you can go to our online program. You can go to our podcast, to our YouTube channel, social media, if you happen to be in the state of Arizona, you know, you can go to our in-office programs. Cause we have a staff of about 10 therapists other than ourselves that are all trained in the Relationship Renovation Model. So, yeah. And social media Relationship Renovation on Instagram, TikTok, that whole, yeah, that whole thing.

Ken Page: Beautiful. And, and every link is gonna be in the transcript and on DeeperDatingPodcast.com.

You will be able to get a complete transcript of this episode as well as all of their links. Tara, EJ, it was really, we, you talk about this stuff like, like no one else I know. So, it's just such a privilege to have you here.

Tara Kerwin: Thank you so much. It feels so great to be here and I can't wait for a part two with you as well.

EJ Kerwin: Yeah, it's fun.

Ken Page: Wonderful, wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I think you opened doors that people might not even have known were closed. Around sex, sexuality, and intimacy. So, thank you so much. Thank you everybody for being a part of the Deeper Dating Podcast, and I look forward to seeing you all on the next episode.

Thank you so much, Tara and EJ.